This is a summary of my article "the biblical doctrine of election" For those with questions about this doctrine, first study this article for the biblical exegesis. (april 2011)
divine decree duns capp.
Christian theology assumes at the start that election is God"s choice of who will and possibly will not recieve God's mercy.
Since the time of John calvin there has been an ongoing debate over the order of decrees by God in eternity past. whether he chose simply to save some, to save some and damn others or to offer it unto all.
The real problem with establishing an order is that while God existed before there was time. How can we establish a timeline if there was no such thing as time?
To do so makes a pre-existent gospel.
jewish definition
After studying the exhaustive concordance I realized that the terms Chosen and election are synonymous with servanthood. As in the kings chosen men. Or Chosen soldiers or chefs or whatever. So election as it was originally used had nothing to do with who recieves mercy. it is about who is used in God's plan.
So since the new Testament is a jewish written document we should assume the definition until it specifically states that the definition has changed. So the Gospel keeps the meaning.
Paul's jewish roots and his revelation of the age of grace
So I went through and found that it is only in Paul where we have a direct link to salvation. So why does Paul seem to change the definition of a word?
The answer is that Paul does not change the definition. However the Object of god's election is widened. So That God has elected those who are believers.
Thus Paul's revelation is that believers will now be used of God. Israel is still of use To God but they must be faithful to Him through Christ. As prophesied.
salvation predestined upon foreknowledge
Now with the doctrine of election segregated from salvation. Salvation is given to the believer upon their faith in christ. God in eternity past predestined believers with the benefits of salvation upon their faith. election
unconditional for the believer
God then unconditionally elects and calls them to service regardless of their merit He will use them to accomplish his mission.
Monday, October 31, 2011
Tuesday, October 25, 2011
How can we be perfect?
48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Many Christians have struggled with the idea of perfection. What is it, and can Christians obtain it?
many in the reformed tradition have notice that sinless perfection is unattainable since mankind is completely depraved. Therefore they argued that this a commandment that was never meant to be fulfilled except by Christ or after glorification. And so it is not as much a commandment as much as a block from trying to obtain self righteousness. However this seems rather illogical. Why would we be ordered things that were incapable for us. It makes it seem as if man is not responsible for imperfection and that God is simply torturing man. Reformers will simply revert to man's pride when the contradiction is located.
That being said Jesus elsewhere teaches that no one is good except for God.(Matthew 19:17) So perfection here can not mean some absolute form of sinlessness. So what is the context?
43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Here we see the context of the use of this verse. The discussion is on love. The normal way of love is to love thy neighbor but not those who are considered your enemies. Yet God's love is complete and perfect because he loves those who are evil.
This is the background to the commandment of perfection. Perfection here is speaking of a completeness. It is not an absolute perfection that humans are incapable of.
It is a valid commandment. And a means of being god-like. This is not to invalidate god's obvious perfections and omnipotent powers. But it points us to the Fathers characteristics and personality to be the highest points of greatness and emphasis.
But by the use of the word perfection it is not simply one of thousands of commands. It is the way of completion. If you want complete your faith you must have the ability to love your enemies. Not tolerate or accept, but to truly love.
back track
Isaiah 2
1The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
This is a prophesy of Isaiah. It is about the messiah. I believe this will be fulfilled completely in the millenial reign of Christ and yet it is also fulfilled partially in Christ Sermon on the Mount. here the Messiah shall teach the world and there shall be peace.
3Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
10Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Here we have the beatitudes. These promises are designed similar to the ten commandments only not as commandments but as blessings. This is a very important concept. Instead of a law in the negative The teachings of christ the Messiah are placed in the positive.
I bring up the beatitudes because this passage on perfection and a perfect love is an extension of the beatitudes as it it included in Christ Sermon on the Mount.
Perfection there fore is not simply a demand of self-righteousness. It is a blessing to be obtained. One of The main goals of Christian discipline is the ability to love our enemies.
Paul goes on to discuss this topic on a different format
1 Corinthians 13
1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
Here in this famous passage Paul is addressing a different topic concerning the supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit. That even the maximum effect of the gifts of knowledge, prophecy and tongues are useles without the gift of charity/love.
Charity here is derived from agape just as Jesus sermon was also addressing is also derived from agape. Most translators prefer to translate this word as love.
The translation of charity is fine in the sense that it indicates action as oppose to only feeling.
4Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
As we look we see the characteristics of love. As I shall paraphrase. Love is patient, it is a kind or gentle thing. It is completely sefless. It is not a rebellious thing. It is not a thing easily shaken.
Essentially Love is entirely oppose to evil. Very important as well is that perfect love is not based upon sin but rest upon the truth.
7Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
Love can endure, believe, hope and bear all things. perfect Love is infallible. All the most miraculous manifestations of the Holy Ghost are limited and they have a point of expiration. These thing as sensational as they are, are not essential for the christian life, and only necessary for the immature. But when we see the perfect come. (which is ultimately the second coming of christ, but currently manifested in His love, On a side note, I do not believe this is referring to a cessation of spiritaul gifts.) then we will be able to survive on His love alone.
11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
Sometimes God works so many things in our immaturity because we are weak and need them. Yet the greatest gift in the Christian life is that which will remain and bring us Home to Glory. This Gift is the love of God.
Many Christians have struggled with the idea of perfection. What is it, and can Christians obtain it?
many in the reformed tradition have notice that sinless perfection is unattainable since mankind is completely depraved. Therefore they argued that this a commandment that was never meant to be fulfilled except by Christ or after glorification. And so it is not as much a commandment as much as a block from trying to obtain self righteousness. However this seems rather illogical. Why would we be ordered things that were incapable for us. It makes it seem as if man is not responsible for imperfection and that God is simply torturing man. Reformers will simply revert to man's pride when the contradiction is located.
That being said Jesus elsewhere teaches that no one is good except for God.(Matthew 19:17) So perfection here can not mean some absolute form of sinlessness. So what is the context?
43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Here we see the context of the use of this verse. The discussion is on love. The normal way of love is to love thy neighbor but not those who are considered your enemies. Yet God's love is complete and perfect because he loves those who are evil.
This is the background to the commandment of perfection. Perfection here is speaking of a completeness. It is not an absolute perfection that humans are incapable of.
It is a valid commandment. And a means of being god-like. This is not to invalidate god's obvious perfections and omnipotent powers. But it points us to the Fathers characteristics and personality to be the highest points of greatness and emphasis.
But by the use of the word perfection it is not simply one of thousands of commands. It is the way of completion. If you want complete your faith you must have the ability to love your enemies. Not tolerate or accept, but to truly love.
back track
Isaiah 2
1The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
This is a prophesy of Isaiah. It is about the messiah. I believe this will be fulfilled completely in the millenial reign of Christ and yet it is also fulfilled partially in Christ Sermon on the Mount. here the Messiah shall teach the world and there shall be peace.
3Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
10Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Here we have the beatitudes. These promises are designed similar to the ten commandments only not as commandments but as blessings. This is a very important concept. Instead of a law in the negative The teachings of christ the Messiah are placed in the positive.
I bring up the beatitudes because this passage on perfection and a perfect love is an extension of the beatitudes as it it included in Christ Sermon on the Mount.
Perfection there fore is not simply a demand of self-righteousness. It is a blessing to be obtained. One of The main goals of Christian discipline is the ability to love our enemies.
Paul goes on to discuss this topic on a different format
1 Corinthians 13
1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
Here in this famous passage Paul is addressing a different topic concerning the supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit. That even the maximum effect of the gifts of knowledge, prophecy and tongues are useles without the gift of charity/love.
Charity here is derived from agape just as Jesus sermon was also addressing is also derived from agape. Most translators prefer to translate this word as love.
The translation of charity is fine in the sense that it indicates action as oppose to only feeling.
4Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
As we look we see the characteristics of love. As I shall paraphrase. Love is patient, it is a kind or gentle thing. It is completely sefless. It is not a rebellious thing. It is not a thing easily shaken.
Essentially Love is entirely oppose to evil. Very important as well is that perfect love is not based upon sin but rest upon the truth.
7Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
Love can endure, believe, hope and bear all things. perfect Love is infallible. All the most miraculous manifestations of the Holy Ghost are limited and they have a point of expiration. These thing as sensational as they are, are not essential for the christian life, and only necessary for the immature. But when we see the perfect come. (which is ultimately the second coming of christ, but currently manifested in His love, On a side note, I do not believe this is referring to a cessation of spiritaul gifts.) then we will be able to survive on His love alone.
11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
Sometimes God works so many things in our immaturity because we are weak and need them. Yet the greatest gift in the Christian life is that which will remain and bring us Home to Glory. This Gift is the love of God.
Tuesday, October 4, 2011
Being an ambassader of the prince of peace
The following is my response to a publication by Southern Baptist theological seminary it is called "towers" this is volume 10 September 2011.
The new evangelical movement has made a lot of progress in turning baptist churches from New Testament churches to mainline protestant churches. Especially concerning our religious liberty and how we then feel about peace and war. While it is fine for a christian to serve in the military and theoretically a government could conduct "a just war" It is not the duty or curse of the Church to pick sides in the deadly confrontation. This a hinderance to the true Gospel and has lead to the persecution of christians over the centuries.
Isaiah 2:4(KJV) 4And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Dear Towers,
This letter is in response to Michael Haykin and Mark T. Coppenger in the interview “turning the correct cheek”
“pacifism has never been a real option for Baptists”So Haykin makes the declaration, as if we were Catholic that Baptist were NEVER pacifistic.
Question: Why didn’t the Baptist war against the state of Massachusetts? Why didn’t the Baptist war against Virginia?
They WERE oppressed in the pre-colonial era. Why didn’t they start the American Revolution earlier themselves? Instead of waiting for non-new testament churches.
So there were no major Baptist leaders who were pacifistic? Ever heard of Baptist pastor Martin Luther King Jr.?
“Baptist came out of a puritan mindset.”Bologna. Baptist came out of an Anabaptist and separatist mindset. If they did not come out of a separatist mindset they would never have separated from the Anglican church to begin with! That is the puritan mindset!
“By and large the American Baptist Experience was not pacificistic either” XIX. Peace and War 1925 Baptist faith and message
It is the duty of Christians to seek peace with all men on principles of righteousness. In accordance with the spirit and teachings of Christ they should do all in their power to put an end to war.
The true remedy for the war spirit is the pure gospel of our Lord. The supreme need of the world is the acceptance of his teachings in all the affairs of men and nations, and the practical application of his law of love.
We urge Christian people throughout the world to pray for the reign of the Prince of Peace, and to oppose everything likely to provoke war.
Matt. 5:9,13-14,43-46; Heb. 12:14; James 4:1; Matt. 6:33; Rom. 14:17,19.
XVI. Peace and War 1963 Baptist faith and message
It is the duty of Christians to seek peace with all men on principles of righteousness. In accordance with the spirit and teachings of Christ they should do all in their power to put an end to war.
The true remedy for the war spirit is the gospel of our Lord. The supreme need of the world is the acceptance of His teachings in all the affairs of men and nations, and the practical application of His law of love.
Isa. 2:4; Matt. 5:9,38-48; 6:33; 26:52; Luke 22:36,38; Rom. 12:18-19; 13:1-7; 14:19; Heb.12:14; James 4:1-2.
XVI. Peace and War 2000 Baptist faith and message
It is the duty of Christians to seek peace with all men on principles of righteousness. In accordance with the spirit and teachings of Christ they should do all in their power to put an end to war.
The true remedy for the war spirit is the gospel of our Lord. The supreme need of the world is the acceptance of His teachings in all the affairs of men and nations, and the practical application of His law of love. Christian people throughout the world should pray for the reign of the Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 2:4; Matthew 5:9,38-48; 6:33; 26:52; Luke 22:36,38; Romans 12:18-19; 13:1-7; 14:19; Hebrews 12:14; James 4:1-2.
Where? Where in any of these editions of the Baptist faith and message is the just war theory propagated?
Let’s make it simpler. Where does Jesus tell the church to start a war?
We know that Jesus refused to be an earthly king.
John 6:15 (KJV)
15When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
We kno w that he said his kingdom was not earthly.
John 18:35-36(KJV)
35Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
We know that Paul said we do not war with carnal weapons.
2 Corinthians 10:4-6
King James Version (KJV)
4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
6And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
Yet we hear……
““Baptist came out of a puritan mindset. In that mindset, Christianity was to transform culture, so they sought to impact culture rather than withdraw from it.” So are we to use war to “impact culture”? Are we to not worry about presenting the gospel because we are slicing a fellows head off while we move on to shoot his wife and children?
“They inherited the right of a people to overthrow a government when the government became oppressive and tyrannical, especially vis a vis religion.”Is this compatible with the doctrine of religious liberty?
XVIII. Religious Liberty
God alone is Lord of the conscience, and he has left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men which are contrary to his Word or not contained in it. Church and state should be separate. The state owes to the church protection and full freedom in the pursuit of its spiritual ends. In providing for such freedom no ecclesiastical group or denomination should be favored by the state more than others. Civil government being ordained of God, it is the duty of Christians to render loyal obedience thereto in all things not contrary to the revealed will of God. The church should not resort to the civil power to carry on its work. The gospel of Christ contemplates spiritual means alone for the pursuit of its ends. The state has no right to impose penalties for religious opinions of any kind. The state has no right to impose taxes for the support of any form of religion. A free church in a free state is the Christian ideal, and this implies the right of free and unhindered access to God on the part of all men, and the right to form and propagate opinions in the sphere of religion without interference by the civil power.
Rom. 13:1-7; 1 Peter 2:17; 1 Tim. 2:1-2; Gal. 3:9-14; John 7:38-39; James 4:12; Gal. 5:13; 2 Peter 2:18-21; 1 Cor. 3:5; Rom. 6:1-2; Matt. 22:21; Mark 12:17.
XVII. Religious Liberty
God alone is Lord of the conscience, and He has left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men which are contrary to His Word or not contained in it. Church and state should be separate. The state owes to every church protection and full freedom in the pursuit of its spiritual ends. In providing for such freedom no ecclesiastical group or denomination should be favored by the state more than others. Civil government being ordained of God, it is the duty of Christians to render loyal obedience thereto in all things not contrary to the revealed will of God. The church should not resort to the civil power to carry on its work. The gospel of Christ contemplates spiritual means alone for the pursuit of its ends. The state has no right to impose penalties for religious opinions of any kind. The state has no right to impose taxes for the support of any form of religion. A free church in a free state is the Christian ideal, and this implies the right of free and unhindered access to God on the part of all men and the right to form and propagate opinions in the sphere of religion without interference by the civil power.
Gen. 1:27; 2:7; Matt. 6:6-7; 24:16:26; 22:21; John 8:36; Acts 4:19-20; Rom. 6:1-2; 13:1-7; Gal. 5:1,13; Phil. 3:20; 1 Tim. 2:1-2; James 4:12; 1 Peter 2:12-17; 3:11-17; 4:12-19.
XVII. Religious Liberty
God alone is Lord of the conscience, and He has left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men which are contrary to His Word or not contained in it. Church and state should be separate. The state owes to every church protection and full freedom in the pursuit of its spiritual ends. In providing for such freedom no ecclesiastical group or denomination should be favored by the state more than others. Civil government being ordained of God, it is the duty of Christians to render loyal obedience thereto in all things not contrary to the revealed will of God. The church should not resort to the civil power to carry on its work. The gospel of Christ contemplates spiritual means alone for the pursuit of its ends. The state has no right to impose penalties for religious opinions of any kind. The state has no right to impose taxes for the support of any form of religion. A free church in a free state is the Christian ideal, and this implies the right of free and unhindered access to God on the part of all men, and the right to form and propagate opinions in the sphere of religion without interference by the civil power.
Genesis 1:27; 2:7; Matthew 6:6-7, 24; 16:26; 22:21; John 8:36; Acts 4:19-20; Romans 6:1-2; 13:1-7; Galatians 5:1,13; Philippians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:1-2; James 4:12; 1 Peter 2:12-17; 3:11-17; 4:12-19.
I f Southern Seminary were consistent they would terminate Michael Haykin for teaching contrary to the Baptist faith and message. They can terminate liberals over the same issue, yet if one is “conservative” then it doesn’t matter if they contradict Baptist teaching.
What source do they rely upon to establish the just war theory?
St. Augustine, count Boniface and Thomas Aquinas.
All Roman Catholic. Also involved in the Killing of Christians over doctrinal differences. (donatism, cathars etc.)
Yes Luther and Calvin would follow in this philosophy. Which would result in the killing of Anabaptist and other sects.
Even more important is the fact that mainline Protestantism then protects the crimes of the RCC Inquisition and the millions upon millions of murders in the name of Christ. Yes Baptist were separate/holy. The New Testament church did not get involved in violence.
However in America, every war since after WWII, congress has never declared war as stated in the constitution. Thus making them illegal. Yet southern Baptist leaders like Richard land ignore the breaking of law in order to perpetuate these wars in the name of Christ.
So as America stomps overseas like an empire. Baptists like Richard Land lets the muslims know that he is pushing the government to make war and occupy their people. So who is the real loser?
New Testament Christians! Iraqi Christians who have been persecuted, murdered and exiled because the Muslims think the Christians are out to get them! That’s a fine way to impact the culture!
Gee, I wonder why Southern Seminary would be so anxious to speak on this issue? I sure it has nothing to do with the fact that one of their biggest donors is the oil companies. (look it up for yourself, not a lie)
Sure the gospel allows soldiers to be saved. But the church is never to officially take sides in any war accept against the devil.
The new evangelical movement has made a lot of progress in turning baptist churches from New Testament churches to mainline protestant churches. Especially concerning our religious liberty and how we then feel about peace and war. While it is fine for a christian to serve in the military and theoretically a government could conduct "a just war" It is not the duty or curse of the Church to pick sides in the deadly confrontation. This a hinderance to the true Gospel and has lead to the persecution of christians over the centuries.
Isaiah 2:4(KJV) 4And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Dear Towers,
This letter is in response to Michael Haykin and Mark T. Coppenger in the interview “turning the correct cheek”
“pacifism has never been a real option for Baptists”So Haykin makes the declaration, as if we were Catholic that Baptist were NEVER pacifistic.
Question: Why didn’t the Baptist war against the state of Massachusetts? Why didn’t the Baptist war against Virginia?
They WERE oppressed in the pre-colonial era. Why didn’t they start the American Revolution earlier themselves? Instead of waiting for non-new testament churches.
So there were no major Baptist leaders who were pacifistic? Ever heard of Baptist pastor Martin Luther King Jr.?
“Baptist came out of a puritan mindset.”Bologna. Baptist came out of an Anabaptist and separatist mindset. If they did not come out of a separatist mindset they would never have separated from the Anglican church to begin with! That is the puritan mindset!
“By and large the American Baptist Experience was not pacificistic either” XIX. Peace and War 1925 Baptist faith and message
It is the duty of Christians to seek peace with all men on principles of righteousness. In accordance with the spirit and teachings of Christ they should do all in their power to put an end to war.
The true remedy for the war spirit is the pure gospel of our Lord. The supreme need of the world is the acceptance of his teachings in all the affairs of men and nations, and the practical application of his law of love.
We urge Christian people throughout the world to pray for the reign of the Prince of Peace, and to oppose everything likely to provoke war.
Matt. 5:9,13-14,43-46; Heb. 12:14; James 4:1; Matt. 6:33; Rom. 14:17,19.
XVI. Peace and War 1963 Baptist faith and message
It is the duty of Christians to seek peace with all men on principles of righteousness. In accordance with the spirit and teachings of Christ they should do all in their power to put an end to war.
The true remedy for the war spirit is the gospel of our Lord. The supreme need of the world is the acceptance of His teachings in all the affairs of men and nations, and the practical application of His law of love.
Isa. 2:4; Matt. 5:9,38-48; 6:33; 26:52; Luke 22:36,38; Rom. 12:18-19; 13:1-7; 14:19; Heb.12:14; James 4:1-2.
XVI. Peace and War 2000 Baptist faith and message
It is the duty of Christians to seek peace with all men on principles of righteousness. In accordance with the spirit and teachings of Christ they should do all in their power to put an end to war.
The true remedy for the war spirit is the gospel of our Lord. The supreme need of the world is the acceptance of His teachings in all the affairs of men and nations, and the practical application of His law of love. Christian people throughout the world should pray for the reign of the Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 2:4; Matthew 5:9,38-48; 6:33; 26:52; Luke 22:36,38; Romans 12:18-19; 13:1-7; 14:19; Hebrews 12:14; James 4:1-2.
Where? Where in any of these editions of the Baptist faith and message is the just war theory propagated?
Let’s make it simpler. Where does Jesus tell the church to start a war?
We know that Jesus refused to be an earthly king.
John 6:15 (KJV)
15When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
We kno w that he said his kingdom was not earthly.
John 18:35-36(KJV)
35Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
We know that Paul said we do not war with carnal weapons.
2 Corinthians 10:4-6
King James Version (KJV)
4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
6And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
Yet we hear……
““Baptist came out of a puritan mindset. In that mindset, Christianity was to transform culture, so they sought to impact culture rather than withdraw from it.” So are we to use war to “impact culture”? Are we to not worry about presenting the gospel because we are slicing a fellows head off while we move on to shoot his wife and children?
“They inherited the right of a people to overthrow a government when the government became oppressive and tyrannical, especially vis a vis religion.”Is this compatible with the doctrine of religious liberty?
XVIII. Religious Liberty
God alone is Lord of the conscience, and he has left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men which are contrary to his Word or not contained in it. Church and state should be separate. The state owes to the church protection and full freedom in the pursuit of its spiritual ends. In providing for such freedom no ecclesiastical group or denomination should be favored by the state more than others. Civil government being ordained of God, it is the duty of Christians to render loyal obedience thereto in all things not contrary to the revealed will of God. The church should not resort to the civil power to carry on its work. The gospel of Christ contemplates spiritual means alone for the pursuit of its ends. The state has no right to impose penalties for religious opinions of any kind. The state has no right to impose taxes for the support of any form of religion. A free church in a free state is the Christian ideal, and this implies the right of free and unhindered access to God on the part of all men, and the right to form and propagate opinions in the sphere of religion without interference by the civil power.
Rom. 13:1-7; 1 Peter 2:17; 1 Tim. 2:1-2; Gal. 3:9-14; John 7:38-39; James 4:12; Gal. 5:13; 2 Peter 2:18-21; 1 Cor. 3:5; Rom. 6:1-2; Matt. 22:21; Mark 12:17.
XVII. Religious Liberty
God alone is Lord of the conscience, and He has left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men which are contrary to His Word or not contained in it. Church and state should be separate. The state owes to every church protection and full freedom in the pursuit of its spiritual ends. In providing for such freedom no ecclesiastical group or denomination should be favored by the state more than others. Civil government being ordained of God, it is the duty of Christians to render loyal obedience thereto in all things not contrary to the revealed will of God. The church should not resort to the civil power to carry on its work. The gospel of Christ contemplates spiritual means alone for the pursuit of its ends. The state has no right to impose penalties for religious opinions of any kind. The state has no right to impose taxes for the support of any form of religion. A free church in a free state is the Christian ideal, and this implies the right of free and unhindered access to God on the part of all men and the right to form and propagate opinions in the sphere of religion without interference by the civil power.
Gen. 1:27; 2:7; Matt. 6:6-7; 24:16:26; 22:21; John 8:36; Acts 4:19-20; Rom. 6:1-2; 13:1-7; Gal. 5:1,13; Phil. 3:20; 1 Tim. 2:1-2; James 4:12; 1 Peter 2:12-17; 3:11-17; 4:12-19.
XVII. Religious Liberty
God alone is Lord of the conscience, and He has left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men which are contrary to His Word or not contained in it. Church and state should be separate. The state owes to every church protection and full freedom in the pursuit of its spiritual ends. In providing for such freedom no ecclesiastical group or denomination should be favored by the state more than others. Civil government being ordained of God, it is the duty of Christians to render loyal obedience thereto in all things not contrary to the revealed will of God. The church should not resort to the civil power to carry on its work. The gospel of Christ contemplates spiritual means alone for the pursuit of its ends. The state has no right to impose penalties for religious opinions of any kind. The state has no right to impose taxes for the support of any form of religion. A free church in a free state is the Christian ideal, and this implies the right of free and unhindered access to God on the part of all men, and the right to form and propagate opinions in the sphere of religion without interference by the civil power.
Genesis 1:27; 2:7; Matthew 6:6-7, 24; 16:26; 22:21; John 8:36; Acts 4:19-20; Romans 6:1-2; 13:1-7; Galatians 5:1,13; Philippians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:1-2; James 4:12; 1 Peter 2:12-17; 3:11-17; 4:12-19.
I f Southern Seminary were consistent they would terminate Michael Haykin for teaching contrary to the Baptist faith and message. They can terminate liberals over the same issue, yet if one is “conservative” then it doesn’t matter if they contradict Baptist teaching.
What source do they rely upon to establish the just war theory?
St. Augustine, count Boniface and Thomas Aquinas.
All Roman Catholic. Also involved in the Killing of Christians over doctrinal differences. (donatism, cathars etc.)
Yes Luther and Calvin would follow in this philosophy. Which would result in the killing of Anabaptist and other sects.
Even more important is the fact that mainline Protestantism then protects the crimes of the RCC Inquisition and the millions upon millions of murders in the name of Christ. Yes Baptist were separate/holy. The New Testament church did not get involved in violence.
However in America, every war since after WWII, congress has never declared war as stated in the constitution. Thus making them illegal. Yet southern Baptist leaders like Richard land ignore the breaking of law in order to perpetuate these wars in the name of Christ.
So as America stomps overseas like an empire. Baptists like Richard Land lets the muslims know that he is pushing the government to make war and occupy their people. So who is the real loser?
New Testament Christians! Iraqi Christians who have been persecuted, murdered and exiled because the Muslims think the Christians are out to get them! That’s a fine way to impact the culture!
Gee, I wonder why Southern Seminary would be so anxious to speak on this issue? I sure it has nothing to do with the fact that one of their biggest donors is the oil companies. (look it up for yourself, not a lie)
Sure the gospel allows soldiers to be saved. But the church is never to officially take sides in any war accept against the devil.
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